Saturday, March 21, 2009

While life is yours, live joyously ...

So said Charvaka: [1][2]

There is no heaven, no final liberation, nor any soul in another world,
Nor do the actions of four castes, orders, produce any real effect,
The Agnihotra, the three Vedas, the ascetic three staves, and smearing one's self with ashes,
Were made by Nature as livelihood of those destitute of knowledge and manliness,
If a beast slain in the Jyotishtoma rite will itself to heaven,
Why then does not the sacrificer forthwith offer his own father?
If Shraadha produces gratification to beings who are dead,
Then here, too, in the case of travellers when they start, it is needless to give provisions for the journey.
If beings in heaven are gratified by our offering the Shraadha here,
Then why not give the food down below to those who are standing on the housetop,
While life remains let a man live happily, let him feed on ghee even though he runs in debt,
When once the body becomes ashes, how can it ever return again?
If he who departs from the body goes to another world,
How is it that he comes not back again, restless for love of his kindred?
Hence it is only as a means of livelihood that Brahmans have established here.

All these ceremonies for the dead - there is no other fruit anywhere.
The three authors of Vedas were buffoons, knaves and demons,
All the well known formulae of pandits, jarphari, turphari,
And all the obscene rites for the queen commanded in the Ashvamedha,
These were invented by buffons, and so all the various kinds of presents to priests,
While eating the flesh was similarly commanded by night prowling demons.
=====================

While life is yours, live joyously,
None can escape Death's searching eye,
When once this frame of ours they burn,
How shall it ever again return?
=====================

I wonder if there is any other treatise on Charvaka or Lokaayata Philosophy other than this chapter in Madhava Acharya's book. It would be good to find one full with Sanskrit shlokas!!

[1] The Sarva Darshana Samgraha , Chapter 1 : The Charvaka System By: Madhava Acharya Translated by: E.B. Cowell and A.E.Gough Published in 1908. Available on here on Google books.
[2] HA's Law: "No discussion between two Indian atheists is complete without discussion about Charvaka or Lokaayata."

Saturday, March 14, 2009

Vivekananda or Charlie Chaplin?

This news is really hillarious:

BJP Activists object to a Charlie Chaplin statue near Udupi. (News Link)

Here is the summary (from what I understand from the news):
  • A movie director wants to install a 67 feet statue of Charlie Chaplin for a song sequence in his movie and obtains all the permissions to install the statue.
  • BJP activists are now protesting the move since the location is close to a temple and asking the director why he isn't installing a statue of Vivekananda instead: As Charlie Chaplin is a Christian and of course, not an Indian!!!.

I say, how dare you install a statue of Vivekananda in Karnataka? He does not speak Kannada. I demand that the director install a statue of Kannada matinee idol late Dr. Raj Kumar instead. I don't care what his movie requires or the song sequence. Seriously, where's Vatal Nagaraj when you really need him.

I have a solution. Install a statue of smiling Vivekananda dressed in a black suit with a black hat and give him a Chaplin moustache for a change. Hopefully, he won't mind.

Wednesday, February 25, 2009

Serious topic: Freedom and public sentiment.

This frightening news should send chill down the spine of all the bloggers. I'm guessing that many have already read this news, but I'm reposting this again here. We recently read about the arrest of Statesman's editor due to Muslim protests on 295(A).

Now read this: Bloggers can be nailed for their views (http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/India/Bloggers-can-be-nailed-for-views/articleshow/4178823.cms):

It will no longer be safe to start a blog and invite others to register their raunchy, caustic and even abusive comments on an issue while seeking protection behind the disclaimer — views expressed on the blog are that of the writers.

This chilling warning emerged as a Bench comprising Chief Justice K G Balakrishnan and Justice P Sathasivam refused to protect a 19-year-old Kerala boy, who had started a community on Orkut against Shiv Sena, from protection against summons received from a Maharashtra court on a criminal case filed against him.

Petitioner Ajith D had started a community on Orkut against Shiv Sena. In this community, there were several posts and discussions by anonymous persons who alleged that Shiv Sena was trying to divide the country on region and caste basis. Reacting to these posts, the Shiv Sena youth wing's state secretary registered a criminal complaint at Thane police station in August 2008 based on which FIR was registered against Ajith under Sections 506 and 295A pertaining to hurting public sentiment.

After getting anticipatory bail from Kerala HC, Ajith moved the Supreme Court through counsel Jogy Scaria seeking quashing of the criminal complaint on the ground that the blog contents were restricted to communication within the community and did not have defamation value. He also pleaded that there was threat to his life if he appeared in a Maharashtra court. A computer science student, Ajith pleaded that the comments made on the blog were mere exercise of their fundamental right to freedom of expression and speech and could not be treated as an offence by police.

Unimpressed, the Bench said, "We cannot quash criminal proceedings. You are a computer student and you know how many people access internet portals. Hence, if someone files a criminal action on the basis of the content, then you will have to face the case. You have to go before the court and explain your conduct."


Lesson: Owner of the blog is responsible for all the articles AND comments posted on his blog.

What's this article 295(A) under which Ajith has been sued for hurting public sentiment:[http://www.vakilno1.com/bareacts/IndianPenalCode/S295A.htm]

Section 295A. Deliberate and malicious acts, intended to outrage religious feelings or any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs1[295A. Deliberate and malicious acts, intended to outrage religious feelings or any class by insulting its religion or religious beliefs.

Whoever, with deliberate and malicious intention of outraging the religious feelings of any class of 2[citizens of India], 3[by words, either spoken or written, or by signs or by visible representations or otherwise], insults or attempts to insult the religion or the religious beliefs of that class, shall be punished with imprisonment of either description for a term which may extend to 4[three years], or with fine, or with both.]

As mentioned in [http://www.scribd.com/doc/12343233/IPC-295A] it is a non-bailable cognizable offense (arrest by police without warrant!). Very thought of having a court case against you is a scary thought. So is there a way in which atheists can question religious beliefs (since it will be deliberate) using spoken or written or any visible representations? What is the legal definition of Malice? Quoting wikipedia (probably from US Criminal Law):

Malice is a legal term referring to a party's intention to do injury to another party. Malice is either expressed or implied. Malice is express when there is manifested a deliberate intention unlawfully to take away the life of a human being. Malice is implied when no considerable provocation appears, or when the circumstances attending the killing show an abandoned and malignant heart.

So if I understand this correctly, if you arguments against religion are deliberate and without malice (no life taking business) then is it ok? What is implied malice? What if someone's comments insult a religious idea deliberately without malice? Does 295(A) still apply?

One more serious question: What happens if religious belief of religion A hurts the religious belief of religion B? For example, what happens if the Christian thought of eternal torture in hell hurts the religious sentiments of Hindus?

I wasn't aware of how loosely 295(A) can be invoked. Read some examples from this post:[http://www.indiauncut.com/iublog/article/dont-insult-pasta/].

This is a very serious issue and can lead to serious consequences. It's a non-bailable criminal offense if someone claims that your words hurt his/her or even public religious sentiments. Am I wrong if I say India is not a free country atleast when it comes to religious sentiments? Can some legal experts throw more light on this serious topic related to Indian Penal Code and Indian citizens? I'm no legal expert and I would like to know more about this law. Any informative links would be useful if someone can post them in the comments.

Live and learn!

Authentic Hinduism - A Cosmic Timeline

His Divinity Swami Prakashanand Saraswati (Shree Swamiji) of Encyclopedia of Authentic Hinduism provides some answers about the age of the universe.

First of all, these authentic hinduism answers are not for non-godly people. Shoo. Look away.
One thing you must understand is that you can never satisfy a critic because he can’t leave his critical nature, and you can never convince an obstinate or a non-godly person because he wouldn't accept your statements. Explanations and evidences are for gentlemen and for open-minded people who are willing to correct their mistakes and are ready to accept the right path and the honest statement. ....
It is thus wise to leave them to live with their own beliefs and don’t try to unnecessarily argue with them to accept the right thing....

Still reading it? You sneaky immoral atheists. Okay here is the answer:

On this earth planet, Bhagwan Ram was about 18 million years ago and Bhagwan Krishn was about 5,000 years ago. Buildings don’t survive that long and coins are coincidental to find, whereas the bed of the river Jamuna would have risen and changed quite significantly. So, digging the entire district of Mathura to find a tiny gold coin of the period of the demon king Kans is not feasible.

The most reliable reaffirmations of the authenticity of the unbroken continuity of the Hindu civilization of 1,900 million years from the period of the first Manu to the period of Krishn, are the commentaries on the Bhagwatam by the great Masters and the acharyas that reconfirm every statement of the Bhagwatam. The Bhagwatam explains the entire procedure of the creation of the universe and the brahmandas (governed by Brahma) and tells the entire history since the creation of this brahmand, from 155.52 trillion years ago and up to the period of Krishn. A major part of the Bhagwatam contains the descriptions of the prime events of the last 1,900 million years.


155.52 Trillion Years ago!! I like the decimal accuracy (0.52) of the above prediction. Very scientific. The article concludes:

But, this is the age of the freedom of speech, anyone could say anything; still the fact remains the fact and the fiction remains the fiction.
I couldn't agree more with that part.

Updated: If you are really curious and want to know about what we (humans) know, what we don't know and most importantantly, why we think we know what we know about origins of our universe, here is a good resource. Subscribe to this podcast using your favorite podcasting tool at: http://www.astronomycast.com/ . You can also listen online. It's quite informative.

Thursday, February 19, 2009

Dedicated to Jesus - Amen!

Ex-nun's confessions set to rock Kerala Church (link) :
Kerala Catholic Church is facing fresh embarrassment from a tell-all autobiography written by a nun who recently quit the Order alleging harassment from superiors.
.....
Starting with her first days in the Church, 30 years ago, she talks of priets forcing novices to have relations with them and the closet homosexuality within nun ranks, “which the Church reckons as the dirtiest thing possible”. “If nuns developed unusual interest in each other, authorities would deploy other inmates to watch them,” she writes.
.....
The book says Jesme herself was forced into such a relationship by a fellow nun, and that her complaints to a senior nun were ignored. According to her, the other nun said she preferred such a relationship as it ruled out pregnancy. There were others who had affairs with priests, she writes.
So much for nuns and celibacy! Article ends with:
Since quitting CMC, Jesme has been staying alone in a flat in Kozhikode. She told The Indian Express she was still living as a “nun”. “I go for Church mass daily and have no plans to get married.
Hope she recovers from this abuse and moves on with her life in a positive direction!I hope she realizes that there's way more to life than attending Church mass daily or get married.  

Wednesday, February 18, 2009

Stellarium: Desktop Stargazing.


It's free. It's awesome. Just try it. Highly recommended.

You can map your day/night sky and locate any star/planet you want. Best part is you can look at all the constellations in the sky visible on any given night, locate the Right Ascension and declination co-ordinates (RA,DEC), run time-lapse simulations, change the date/location of your observation, trace your ecliptic and so on. Spend a couple of hours playing with it and you will be hooked!! Really sweet.

I have also used Google Sky (part of Google Earth), but I find Stellarium much better especially if you are an amateur (like me). You can see the sky along with your horizon. I haven't tried the Microsoft alternative yet (WWT: World Wide telescope). Google Sky and WWT have annotated information (videos, data and links). Stellarium doesn't support that. 

You know what they say about fighting darkness (ignorance) -- Don't try to remove darkness, instead allow light to enter in. Darkness will vanish on it's own.  You will accomplish less if you just tell people that astrology is bullshit. Instead present real details about how inconceivably far these planets and stars are from earth to really affect our lives.  Go stargazing - at least on your computer. Go out in the night and look at the stars.  Share the tools to see this magnificent cosmic dance around us. Show them astronomy. They will forget astrology. Hopefully.  Reminds me of what one of my teachers used to say about preparing technical presentations  - "Don't try to impress. Try to inform. If you inform, you will impress"

Next time, your family astrologer says that your birth star is Revathitell him that it's a star in Pisces constellation (gamma-Piscium) located close to 130 light years away. That might shoo him away.  Here is a screen shot (more here):



Note: Reposted with smaller image size.

Tuesday, February 17, 2009

Free University in internet.

Recently, Hemant Mehta asked an interesting question on his blog: Would you be an atheist without the internet

I probably wouldn't be one. 

Internet is an immensly powerful tool for sharing ideas and resources providing much needed pointers towards answers for anyone who is genuinely curious about big questions of life! Quick and accessible is the key. Here is one such wonderful link: Free University in internet.  Amazing site with a large collection of documentaries linked to Google video about every conceivable topic (philosophy, religion, physics, biology, astronomy, education, history and so on). 

If only our previous generation had access to such abundant information during their busy lives, especially if they toiled day and night, year after year, to better their lives.  I'm sure they would have been more critical of superstitious beliefs.  As Basava Premananda recently said: "... don't waste your time with the older generation. Go to younger people who are going to change the world".

Be careful. Once you watch all the documentaries listed on this site, you may end up like this:




Sadly, Google video has now stopped accepting video uploads. God, you screwed that one up while I was away. 

Saturday, February 14, 2009

Earth to God.....

Earth to God... Earth to God.... Hello God, I'm back now. Thanks for taking care of this blue marble while I was away. I can handle it from now on. See you later. :)

[Image courtesy: Blue Marble, Visible Earth from NASA]

I have a LOT to catch up with. Hopefully, I'll pick up the blogging pace slowly in the coming weeks. Meanwhile, it would be fun to watch bloggers have a field day writing about the Cow-urine Cola from the Cow Protection Department of RSS. Oh, just in case you are curious to know more about the "medicinal" value of cow-urine, watch this channel:

I must admit this. I have tasted cow-urine. Once. When I was around 9 years old. When extended funeral rites of a close relative were performed at our home. In the form of Panchagavya, a liquid mixture of prepared from five products of cow (Cow dung, Cow urine, Milk, Ghee and Curds). Trust me. You don't want to taste it. I have distinct memories of how the taste lasted on my tongue for a long time. Some of my cousins (kids) who were around at that time also distinctly remember the horrible after taste after being forced to take a sip. Why you ask? It's holy and the priest said so.

I wonder if anyone reading this post has actually tasted cow urine. I can't believe I am asking this question but I would not be surprised if someone has also tasted Panchagavya during funeral rites. Especially, if he is a brahmin.

Thursday, January 8, 2009

The Story of India.

In this landmark six-part series for PBS and the BBC, Michael Wood will embark on a dazzling and exciting journey through today's India, "seeking in the present for clues to her past, and in the past for clues to her future". http://www.pbs.org/thestoryofindia/

This series premiered on PBS this week. From the episode I watched (episode 2), I felt that it had a very non-judgemental curious tone about it. It showcased great ideas from India that have influenced the planet. Quite well done actually. Jubilantly optimistic. Bubbling enthusiasm strikingly reminiscent of Thomas Friedman's documentaries on India. :)






Oh, did I mention that hour long episodes are available on Google video? :)

Tuesday, January 6, 2009

Richard Cory - yes, richer than a king.

"Richard Cory" by E A Robinson published in 1897:
Whenever Richard Cory went down town,
We people on the pavement looked at him:
He was a gentleman from sole to crown,
Clean favored, and imperially slim.

And he was always quietly arrayed,
And he was always human when he talked;
But still he fluttered pulses when he said,"Good-morning,"
and he glittered when he walked.

And he was rich — yes, richer than a king
And admirably schooled in every grace:
In fine, we thought that he was everything
To make us wish that we were in his place.

So on we worked, and waited for the light,
And went without the meat, and cursed the bread;
And Richard Cory, one calm summer night,
Went home and put a bullet through his head.
Today's news article fired my neurons to the poem: German Billionaire Kills Himself.
Does any other species besides humans commit suicide? I wonder.

Friday, January 2, 2009

Fulminating against India is more fun.

From The Economist :


Pakistan has made a modest start against the likely culprits of the Mumbai killings. But fulminating against India is more fun. If PAKISTAN’S leaders had ever united against Islamist militancy as they have against India over the past three weeks, their country would not be the violent mess that it is.


United Pakistan against Islamic Miltancy? May be in some other parallel universe. There are moderate voices in Pakistan. But in its current state of existence, Pakistan is probably beyond redemption. I hope I'm wrong.

Frontline PBS 'The War Briefing' focused on Taliban/Pakistan recently. They highlight a long known fact - How Taliban and Al Qaeda have safe haven in Pakistan's tribal areas due to longstanding Pakistan-Taliban ties and the region's turbulent geopolitics. Included is some footage from first glimpses into Waziristan right after 9/11. Gun trotting mullahs rejoicing in their tribal dance. PBS reran this episode last week. Watch it here.

I'm at my wits end and I admit I'm probably not smart enough. But I don't see any outside solution to diffuse this ticking time-bomb of Pakistan waiting to explode in the face of humanity. Allah Ho Akbar.

What a skeptic is not!!

An interesting note from Young Australian Skeptics:
A common misconception by non-skeptics is to define skeptics as “atheists”. This is not the case; skeptics are not atheists by default. Skeptics can be of any religious denomination but due to skeptics being generally dubious of topics that hold n evidence they tend to lean towards an atheistic view of the universe. Skeptics do not set out to “debunk” religion as this is a job that is very large in scale and not necessarily related to scepticism as a movement. It is only when religious ideas such as faith healing or mediums make an appearance that a skeptic should step in.
Clearing this misconception is very important. Most of us (religious or otherwise) are skeptical about claims in a general sense.  But I can say from my personal experience that being a religious believer leaves you vulnerable. For example, I was really skeptical about Ramar Pillai's herbal formula to create petrol from water even when I was religious. On the other hand, I was too afraid to question the effectiveness of reading Shri Shani Mahatyam (Story of Shani's life, shani is basically planet Saturn) to ward off terrorizing consequences of Saturn occupying the wrong spot in my astrological charts.  I have read this mythological story of Shani many times on Saturdays during my childhood. When I was "religious", I wouldn't mind spending money to offer special ritual at the Hanuman temple to counter act the terrifying effects of Shani (Saturn). Yeah, Hanuman is supposedly the anti-dote of Shani. Our family pundit continues to watch out for the threat of Shani to some of my relatives. He's good man that way.. :)

Why is that? Why didn't I exercise the same level of skepticism?? Is it possible to find a Hindu believer to be skeptical about such ritualistic beliefs? Or do they just want to take a safer route especially when things are not working out well in certain aspects of their lives?

There is a reason why this is important. All the time and money invested on such cleansing rituals can better be invested in other things. Making a donation for that amount to any charitable cause is probably the easiest alternative. Collectively people in India spend a LOT of money on rituals. A lot. Elaborate rituals go hand-in-hand with any and every life events (marriages, house warming ceremonies, ..). Even Indians residing outside India spend mega bucks to perform special rituals at their homes to invite health, wealth, prosperity and keep out the evil eye. You may say it is all symbolic harmless belief (it's not like waging Jihad for Allah) or may even be convinced of the "scientific" hidden meanings of rituals. Sorry, I beg to differ. 

In my opinion, society will be a better place if you can do the same too, even if you are a believer. Don't you think? I would love to hear from a believer to defend why spending time and money on religious rituals is better than so many other possible investments for such valuable resources.

Wednesday, December 31, 2008

Funniest moment of 2008.

Another year, blip on the cosmic scale, whizzes past us. Year 2008 has been very interesting, to say the least. An attention freak crazy primate from our Homo sapien family who was raised as Jehova's witness converted to Islam this year. Take a look (40 seconds):


This (alleged) child molester found solace in the words of Muhammed, a messenger of God, our man behind the religion of "peace". We will never know what struck Michael's (oops, should I say, Mikaeel's) fancy. May be he's really gung-ho about universal brotherhood of Islam. Or may be was inspired by the achievements of Muhammed the great who consummated his marriage with Aisha when she was 9 years old. Does it take one to admire one?

One day while emptying some moving boxes lying in the closet for years I found an old audio cassette of Michael's hit album Dangerous. Popped the cassette into my music player and hit the fast forward button to find one of the songs I used to like from that album. It had been a while since I had heard that song. Probably the first english song I ever listened to in my life or at least the one that caught my attention. Heal the world. Pretty good song actually. I turned up the volume as my mind wandered slowly through the nostalgic memories of my college life in India from last decade.

"Heal the world, make it a better place, for you and for me and the entire human race" sang Michael and I screamed along. My mom who was walking past the hallway looked at me sitting on the floor in front of the stereo.

"Amma, remember this song from Jackson baba?" I asked.

In many Indian langauages mom is often addressed as Amma. Sounds very similar to Ma.

"ohhohoho, Maikul Jacksona? kool kool." she chuckled.

Everyone knows Michael. Even small local news papers in India carry tidbits of his fancy life in their tabloid page.

After the song was over, I turned the stereo off. Put the cassette back into it's cover and threw the box into a trash bag. Who needs a cassette with YouTube and all. So I'm sitting there sorting through rest of the crap, mostly cassettes and CDs, from the box.

Amma walked out of the kitchen and came straight to me. She gave me a perplexed look. I knew she had something on her mind.
"Hey, Is true what they say about Maikul Jackson?" she asked.

My retired parents have a lot of time on their hands these days. This year, among other things, they discovered Google search, Google News and YouTube. We also have a lot conversations about religion with my growing skepticism and disbelief in religious ideas. They know I'm still a good guy, perhaps a little misguided.


She has probably read this news about Michael's conversion to Islam somewhere through Google News, I thought to myself. So I had my standard reply -"I don't know" - ready.

"What's it Amma?"
"You know...."
"What Amma?"
"Is it true that he is actually a woman?"
"What?"
"Someone told me that he went through an operation. Amerikans are crazy you know. I have always been curious. Is it true?"

I literally rolled on the floor laughing. I didn't see that one coming.

" I don't know Amma. I really have no idea".

Look on my mom's face was absolutely precious as she asked me that question. I laughed so hard that tears rolled down my eyes. That moment, tattooed in my brain, is right up there in my top 10 memorable moments of 2008.

We are some crazy, interesting and gifted monkeys on this planet. A form of life no more than a couple of hundred thousand years old. Blink of an eye. Our brains have evolved to relatively large sizes compared to other life forms resulting in variety of expressions and emotions. That's why I can savor every little moment of my life like the one above. We can actually think. Think. Let's do our best to promote reason, rationality and active dialogue in 2009 (and beyond). This is probably the best workable option for a privileged few of us to bring about favorable conditions to all homo sapiens, 6.6 billion and counting, inhabiting this beautiful rock suspended in space.

It feels wonderful to be alive! Let's heal the world. Sounds ambitious...but what the hell, dreams are free!! :)

Monday, December 29, 2008

Where is the center of earth?

Time for some holiday entertainment (3 min):


Saturday, December 27, 2008

Do you believe in destiny?

Many people believe do. It's a notion that everything that happens to us or around us takes a predetermined course. Would you consider the idea of fate or destiny if you walk out unscathed from devastating car wreck? If you have ever been in such a situation, you know how susceptible a person can be to the notion of destiny or even a boss upstairs who's looking out for you.

People who survive accidents often make a personal case for destiny. They ask - what are the chances? Talking about probabilities and chance seems so ridiculous. But guess what? Probability does apply and you happened to be lucky. Reminds me of a post on Science and Math defeated :

--------------
Probability is false.

Imagine the following scenario: You and Dominique Jones are great friends in 2nd grade. Then, twenty years later, Dominique moves to Venezuela and loans a Noam Chomsky book to Hugo Chavez. Then, you become a custodian for a small high school. Then, you win the lottery - without even buying a ticket. Then, you travel to the Congo. In Congo, you run into Dominique. Dominique says, “Oh gosh! What are the chances?”

Most people would respond with something ignorant such as “Yeah I know!” or “Pretty low!” According to my research, however, the proper response is 100%. But why? Because if this scenario happens, the chances of it happening are of course 100%. The key terms in my analysis are “if,” “happens,” and “of course.” If it didn’t happen, then the chances of it happening were always 0%. Some people would argue that this commits me to hard determinism, but it does not. A la carte Peter van Inwagen free will exists. What it commits me to is the world of facts. If you are pro-fact, then you will abandon all probabilities between 0 and 100%.

---------

Check out the other posts. It's satire at its best.

Monday, December 22, 2008

Children and Religion.

Shouldn't we wait till children become old enough to have a meaningful conversation about God or religion? Where do we draw the line between culture and religion? It's not easy to make a clear distinction between the two especially for people (doesn't matter which religion) from India. I will hold my thoughts on this topic as I am not an expert in parenting (secular or otherwise). But in my opinion, God or no God, one thing that must be encouraged in every possible way by parents - critical thinking. This is probably the most valuable lesson a parent can impart.

Just some obervations. Take a look:

(2 minutes):




(1 minute):




(2 minutes):




(3 minutes):



I too learnt quite a few of Sanskrit chants during my childhood. But I do not remember what I actually believed or to what extent I believed about God prior to my teen years. From my earliest memory, my belief was always about acknowledging an unknown undefined higher power.

Just a thought. I always wonder how Christian/Hindu parents feel when they see another child being indoctrinated by his/her Muslim parents or vice-versa?